frozen or shelf life ?

[cloud9]

After reading the last few posts about taking bait to France , what is the main reason why you would use fresh/ frozen here over shelf life ? Am I missing something using shelf life baits ? ...

 

[B.C.]

Here's my take on fresh verses shelf life...….. Shelf life baits contain preservatives, this will inhibit their breakdown/enzyme activity...…. It's my op' that on trickier venues, the fish will wait until these baits are more digestible, given the choice, in short, they will have less "instant attraction"...… Just an opinion.

[greekskii]

I’d add that shelf life contains much less for the fish. Preserving fish and meat meals long term is incredibly difficult without using some pretty nasty chemical preservatives. Hence why shelf life ‘fishmeals’ are little more than a basic semo mix with a fish flavour on and contain little real fish or meat meals. 

[salokcinnodrog]

9 hours ago, B.C. said:

Here's my take on fresh verses shelf life...….. Shelf life baits contain preservatives, this will inhibit their breakdown/enzyme activity...…. It's my op' that on trickier venues, the fish will wait until these baits are more digestible, given the choice, in short, they will have less "instant attraction"...… Just an opinion.

 

6 hours ago, greekskii said:

I’d add that shelf life contains much less for the fish. Preserving fish and meat meals long term is incredibly difficult without using some pretty nasty chemical preservatives. Hence why shelf life ‘fishmeals’ are little more than a basic semo mix with a fish flavour on and contain little real fish or meat meals. 

At the same time, by air drying baits almost totally, you preserve baits without using preservative. You can dry boilies, then put them through a glycerol sugar syrup solution, and blow dry them again. That way minimal preservatives are used.

 

Doing that you actually increase the initial attraction, albeit at the reduction of active enzyme attraction after day 2/3 etc.

Freezer baits may while being a good food source, after the active enzyme movement on day whatever (dependant on temperature etc), can increase in attraction, either in the water, or on the bank, where it is more easily noticed, as the water in the freezer baits evaporates bringing with it both enzymes, salts and sugars to the surface of the boilie; hence the stickiness and whiteness.

 

A number of bait companies are now producing almost identical baits in freezer and shelf life form. The difference between them is quite literally the sugar syrup solution. It stabilises the bait, and preserves it. 

 

 

 

[B.C.]

I bought a 5kg bag of bait recently from a local firm, straight out of their freezer and into a bucket. That was about 3 weeks back and they still haven't turned, recon they might be shelfies in disguise lol..... I bought them because the lake I've been fishing has seen a bit of this bait so I've been mixing it 50/50 with my own to try and get my bait established...….. Going back to "instant" attraction, I was using these baits on my first sesh, where I blanked on the carp front. It was a few days later that I noticed that they hadn't turned at all, so I have since dried the rest out and boosted them with some liquid food to use in small quantities whilst actually fishing, mixed with some of mine, with my own hookers...…. 

It's another reason why I like making bait. I know exactly what I'm using/buying...…. I'm quite sure it was a genuine mix up on their part. but I wonder how many shelfies are sold as frozen?

[smufter]

On 09/06/2018 at 22:14, cloud9 said:

After reading the last few posts about taking bait to France , what is the main reason why you would use fresh/ frozen here over shelf life ? Am I missing something using shelf life baits ? ...

 

A lot (read most) of the French venues insist that you take Fresh/Frozen rather than shelf life. I could understand this maybe 10 years ago when shelf life baits were like lumps of chalk in comparison. But nowadays there is very little difference, if any, between the two.

I have some ABS MC Nut at home, in both freezer and shelf life.  I can guarantee that if I was on the bank with a bag of each you, or the best bailiff in the world, wouldn't be able to tell the difference.

I have used both, and have noticed no discernible difference in my catch rates. The only difference is in my head................... I think that I am doing my best for the fish by using frozen baits. 

 

[B.C.]

6 hours ago, smufter said:

I think that I am doing my best for the fish by using frozen baits. 

Exactly that Smuft…… I personally think that a lot of shelfies, even if picked up, will pass straight through a fish with very little being utilised in comparison to freezer baits...… I have no proof of this. But it stands to reason that preservatives are used to kerb enzyme activity, so how can they be broken down inside the fishes gut?..... I don't think they harm the fish in any way, but I just think that there is less of an instant attraction  and less instant nutrition per boilie eaten..... For me, a bait that starts to turn after a day or two in warm conditions is what I like to use, sometimes promoting this by leaving them in the airing cupboard for a day before a trip.

Getting back to the OP of using preserved baits for long trips, I'd rather dry them out and rehydrate..... But as you mention, it could all be in my head...… But confidence is a big thing imo.

[yonny]

14 minutes ago, B.C. said:

it stands to reason that preservatives are used to kerb enzyme activity

That.

It is the activity in break-down that releases those aminos and attractors. If we inhibit that with preservatives then all we're left with is a little ball of food - hence we might as well be feeding any old thing the carp are prepared to eat.

It is the activity that makes boiled baits so good. Get rid of that activity and it's a complete waste of money imo.

[greekskii]

26 minutes ago, B.C. said:

Getting back to the OP of using preserved baits for long trips, I'd rather dry them out and rehydrate....

Another thing I do which helps preserve fresh boilies is using the squid brand fish sauce to rehydrate them. At 77% anchovy extract, 21% salt and 2% sugar (or something similar). I’m sure that drawing the salt content in helps preserve them somewhat. I’ve managed to keep sealed buckets in the shade in 28+ degrees for a good few days without them going bad. They just go tacky to the touch as the sugars start coming out. 

But then I guess it’s boilie dependant also! That works with the boilies I use, maybe not so with other brands. 

[yonny]

9 minutes ago, greekskii said:

the sugars start coming out. 

That's a myth bud. What that residue is, is the activity starting i.e. they are slowly but surely beginning to break down i.e go off (in a good way)! Many guys think baits are at their best at this stage and I don't particularly disagree with them. It is evidence of the baits working prior to introduction - a kick-started bait if you will......

[Gazlaaar]

Personally, I think if a bait is good, it's good irrespective of it being frozen or shelf life. 

Jim Gibbinson 

1, some anglers who use baits complying with HNV theory are very successful.

2, some anglers who use baits complying with HNV theory are very unsuccessful.

3, some anglers who use what, according to HNV theory, are poor baits, are very successful.

4, some anglers who use what, according to HNV theory, are poor baits, are very unsuccessful.

[chillfactor]

2 hours ago, Gazlaaar said:

Personally, I think if a bait is good, it's good irrespective of it being frozen or shelf life. 

Exactly my thoughts... most good bait firms use natural preservatives these days . 

With my tendency for zigs these days I've found shelf life to be my preferred buy .

 

[Gazlaaar]

9 hours ago, chillfactor said:

Exactly my thoughts... most good bait firms use natural preservatives these days . 

With my tendency for zigs these days I've found shelf life to be my preferred buy .

 

The biggest and best ingredient of any bait, whether it be boilie, particle or plastic is the angler.

[salokcinnodrog]

21 hours ago, Gazlaaar said:

Personally, I think if a bait is good, it's good irrespective of it being frozen or shelf life. 

Jim Gibbinson 

1, some anglers who use baits complying with HNV theory are very successful.

2, some anglers who use baits complying with HNV theory are very unsuccessful.

3, some anglers who use what, according to HNV theory, are poor baits, are very successful.

4, some anglers who use what, according to HNV theory, are poor baits, are very unsuccessful.

I agree, although there is a 'BUT'.

 

I had a preference for freezer baits for years, but the introduction of a shelf life Trigga started me thinking, as I caught some decent fish on that on a water I hadn't fished before, and took (home made) Trigga onto another lake in two forms, frozen and air dried, where I caught on both versions. 

 

I then went back onto freezer baits again as I started field testing for a bait company with their own baits. After their demise I moved onto Solar, Solar baits (double Solar for a reason😉), and was working for the company that produces Crafty Catcher.

 

With Solar I have used a few of their baits in both freezer and shelf life version, Seafood Takeaway, the Originals; Red Herring, Club mix, and the shelf life only Tunamino. 

From experience, the shelf life baits do catch, and instantly, but I honestly think that the freezer baits are more attractive after a couple of days.

 

Yonny, I am sorry, I do think it is sugars and salts coming to the surface, an activity known as efflorescence. It is visible in building, usually on concrete, but is also visible in cheese making, and processed meat sausages (like salami and chorizo). Above water, evaporation of water within the boilies brings these substances to the surface, and they can be a pre-cursor to mould. In the water there is a movement of water from inside the bait to outside, and equally, there is a movement from outside the bait to inside. The water molecules themselves move.

Imagine a sponge soaked in coloured dye, you put it in water, you can see the coloured water come out of the sponge, and if there is a current, washes the dye 'downstream'. However, the sponge also takes in 'clean' water. 

 

 

 

 

 

[yonny]

1 hour ago, salokcinnodrog said:

Yonny, I am sorry, I do think it is sugars and salts coming to the surface, an activity known as efflorescence. It is visible in building, usually on concrete, but is also visible in cheese making, and processed meat sausages (like salami and chorizo).

Those meats are cured in salt. Boilies are not.

I've never seen sugar or salt form on cheese.

1 hour ago, salokcinnodrog said:

Above water, evaporation of water within the boilies brings these substances to the surface

So why doesn't it happen when we air dry baits Nick?

[salokcinnodrog]

24 minutes ago, yonny said:

Those meats are cured in salt. Boilies are not.

I've never seen sugar or salt form on cheese.

So why doesn't it happen when we air dry baits Nick?

Salts are naturally in your bait, the ingredients used. Camembert and brie use the first moulds to help form the skin. If you leave cheddar (and other cheeses) you get a layer of white come to the surface, before the mould.

 

It does happen when we air dry baits, but because you shake the bag, roll or rustle the tray, it is actually rubbed off against each other. 

 

I mentioned my air drying Trigga baits for Earith, I did actually get this white layer on my baits, but as I rustled the bag I saw it come off against each other.

[yonny]

Think we'll have to agree to disagree on this one Nick.

[cloud9]

Thanks for all the answers guy's , I have a question for nick , why do you think that shelf life baits give a more instant attraction rather than fresh ? Do you think that they are loaded with more instant attraction than the fresh ? Then a question for you all , are the natural preserving agents holding back the attraction elements of the baits?  And what about glugs and dips are these really adding anything more to your baits .....

 

[salokcinnodrog]

8 minutes ago, cloud9 said:

Thanks for all the answers guy's , I have a question for nick , why do you think that shelf life baits give a more instant attraction rather than fresh ? Do you think that they are loaded with more instant attraction than the fresh ? Then a question for you all , are the natural preserving agents holding back the attraction elements of the baits?  And what about glugs and dips are these really adding anything more to your baits .....

 

The answer I think lies in the preservation process, the glycerol sugar syrup dip.

Years ago, on a personal note, I found glycerol based flavours were often more attractive than other flavour solvent bases, and I think the glycerol is an attractor in its own right, but add it with a sugar you have mega instant attraction.

There was also a sweet flavour that also worked best at high levels, chocolate malt. Very 'sticky' sickly sweet, but boy did it work, and Rod Hutchinson rated it highly.

 

Most definitely this glycerol sugar preservative holds back the long term attraction of the enzymes and sugars coming to the fore. I think it, not necessarily kills enzyme activity, but most definitely reduces it. Freezer baits I think work on day 2/3/4 on this enzyme activity, the efflorescence, even if Yonny and I disagree on how it works. (And good, be a boring world if we were all the same😉)

 

Do glugs and dips add to baits?

I think the answer is in how you use them. For instant attraction, yes, but not for long term use, where you are trying to create a food source. Saying that, by the third day, if uneaten, I think the dip/glug will have been washed out, and you are left with the bait as it stands. The 'unknown' advantage of many dips or glugs, is they harden the baits. Guess what the base preservative or ingredient is in these baits, and I think the hardening ingredient itself:

 

Glycerol or glycerine. Mix that with CSL liquid or molasses, yeast etc, and you have more instant attraction.

That is my view, but I would like other opinions on it, either agreeing or disagreeing.

[yonny]

9 hours ago, cloud9 said:

what about glugs and dips are these really adding anything more to your baits .....

Depends what you class as a dip/glug imo. An amino rich hysdroslate is a far cry from a pot of glycerin mixed with synthetic flavour.

[salokcinnodrog]

21 minutes ago, yonny said:

Depends what you class as a dip/glug imo. An amino rich hysdroslate is a far cry from a pot of glycerin mixed with synthetic flavour.

Agree on that; glycerine mixed in with Amino rich hydroslate, CSL, liquid yeast is a different beast to just a plain flavour.

 

 

[ianfrog]

To return to Cloud9`s question about shelfies and instant attraction I was once in the factory of a well known bait maker and his shelf life baits were being dried off prior to bagging and the last operation was to over spray with a dilute solution of the flavour with glycol.

When I asked about this he said the extra smell hooked anglers n the tackle shop lol and didn't do any harm as a bit of an attractor boost.

The same company did supply freezer baits and from what I saw and was told this last overspraying didn't take place.

Not conclusive but I tend to think there could have been something in it.

Cheers

Ian