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Carp dietary requirements and digestive system


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It is times like this, that I wish I had the wit and the wisdom of a 'pink' snooker ball. :wink::mrgreen: (eyebrows optional)

 

Androoooo -

Now that, imo, would be a chuffin shame, also in my opinion, a great loss to this message board.

I hope you change your mind. I would love to have the opportunity to learn from your knowledge.

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Turnip I only commented to clear up an inaccuracy associated to my name. Maybe someone else will want to have the discussion.

 

There's too much hyperbole, conjecture and incongruence on the board for me to want to contribute.

Well if you were to contribute then maybe people such as myself amongst others might learn something and there would be less hyperbole , conjecture and incongruence .

 

I've learnt sonething already by looking up the meanings of those 3 words ....

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whatever the carps dietary needs are i think 2 blokes on one of my lakes knows exactly what that is. they are machines, and not blanked yet whilst all around are blanking good and proper, including me and they do this on every lake they fish so im told. if only they liked the odd beer i could maybe get them talking lol

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whatever the carps dietary needs are i think 2 blokes on one of my lakes knows exactly what that is. they are machines, and not blanked yet whilst all around are blanking good and proper, including me and they do this on every lake they fish so im told. if only they liked the odd beer i could maybe get them talking lol

Cell :) :) :) :)

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whatever the carps dietary needs are i think 2 blokes on one of my lakes knows exactly what that is. they are machines, and not blanked yet whilst all around are blanking good and proper, including me and they do this on every lake they fish so im told. if only they liked the odd beer i could maybe get them talking lol

Try to get good pictures; I want to see the look in their eyes.
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its not the cell mr newmarket. anyone that talks to them says that everything is always out of site. when theyve packed up no dropped bits or nothing. this could be a job for poirot or marple :wink: . i saw one go to his motor on saturday and all he got out was a pressure cooker with its lid on. so particles is my guess unless he fancied a nice stew at 9 in the morning lol

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nm, and hopefully Androoooo,... re: enzyme(s).

 

I mentioned it earlier, but that was in passing, but as an open question - Is there/what alternative(s) anything you would use other than pineapple to activate the protease and amylase? 

Edited by Turnip
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You'll have to forgive my ignorance as my exploration in bait has just really begun, its funny you should mention protease as its exactly the subject I was researching last night,

 

I shall share what I have found here

 

People have thought of many unique and advanced methods to get their fishing hook delivery 'fool-proof;' from using semi-permeable membranes filled with amino acids, to 'sponge hooks' full of irresistible goodies! The next best thing is to deliver a bait which is 'alive' with amino acids, because it is being actively digested by various means! There are various enzymes that act upon the different food groups, some which may be sourced, to use in your bait to predigest its food group ingredients, making your bait a far more energy-efficient nutrition source, so making it as attractive as possible:Proteins (proteases): trypsin pH (3.5 to 6), bromelain pH 3 to 10, papain, acetyltyrosine, actinidine, fincinCarbohydrates and starch (amylases): amylase, bromelain, diastaseFats and oils (lipase) Milk constituents: lactaseWhite sugar (sucrase): iron sucroseMalt sugars and grains (maltase, diastase)Dietary fiber / Cellulose: (cellulase)The crystalline forms of trypsin, amylase and can be used for example. Fishing bait companies offer it. They are the enzymes the carp use themselves in digestion. For natural enzymic application, for example, amylolytic yeast strain enzymes have shown similar optimum temperature and pH ranges in tests on wheat, as amylases from bacteria.Betaine is 'closely related to' cystine, and is a proven attractor. Used in bait, it has been claimed to work best with the combined use of plenty of amino acids. It is recommended at 1 to 2 grams per pound, although it is more effective at far higher doses...It is also used in aquaculture feeds and been used by 'select' anglers for years as in 'Finnstim' in milk protein baits. The crystal form of bromelain (from pineapple) is supplied by health food companies as a 'tonic,' and taken at up to 1000 mgs a day as a human digestion aid. It efficiently 'hydrolyses' most soluble proteins at pH 3 to 10, at a wide range of temperatures for liquid and many amazing carp attracting substances.Casein, hemoglobin, gelatin, soya protein, fish and shellfish proteins, etc. These are converted to peptides and amino acids. It has (very conveniently for us) a wide range of effective acid-base levels (pH), and temperatures.Mixed with base mix ingredients, they gradually reduce the structure to a mush, if levels are too high; a teaspoon per pound is sufficient to begin the effect. Once boilies and other baits have been prepared and left to cool and dry after boiling, freeze immediately, to prevent baits predigesting too quickly in advance of fishing. Enzyme-treated baits lose much of their unique attractiveness if the enzyme activity is reduced or stopped for any reason, before 'backside' use. In the 1980s, I once met the world carp record holder (at that time), Kevin Ellis, while he was fishing. He was throwing his free baits out before casting out. He explained that the large drum, full to the top with bait (looked like many 'kilos') would all have to go into the water immediately - before it all 'melted;' because it was so extremely enzyme-active! (But obviously very highly effective!)Using enzymes, it's recommended by some to keep hook baits in a pre warmed flask, e.g. 60 plus degrees, to keep the enzymes active right up to the point of use. This is all worthwhile. Results on such baits can be truly amazing when sufficient bait has been applied to a water, extracting the very biggest fish, even, at times, in days rather than weeks! I'd always keep my hook baits warm, even if only to allow more bacteria to act and begin 'bioactive fermentation' on the bait, making them feel 'sticky' and smell slightly 'sickly', as sugars and alcohols are produced. You can use a pre warmed flask to keep your hook baits actively curing, even if you're not using enzymes in your bait. Getting your baits to begin to ferment is one of the best ways to deliberately maximize your 'finished' boilies' attraction. 'Bioactivity' by natural bacterial enzymes can be used on any 'chemically unpreserved' fresh or frozen bait.This is one of the 'secret' methods those anglers 'in the know' have always used as an edge. Even use it on any frozen fresh shop-bought baits. Defrost them an average 2 to 3 days before use, and keep them warm until use! (Bring them more 'alive' by encouraging bacterial 'bioactivity!')It is obvious that bacteria play a vital role in the way carp source and are able to synthesis food because the digestive tract is so short and inefficient compared to our own. The carp digestive tract has evolved in a way that reflects the aquatic food sources available. It seems to extract maximum nutritional benefits in ways that are very different from our own digestion! What a carp eats and how it prefers it in a particular state of breakdown may seem amazing and even disgusting to us! Did you know that 10 out of 10 dogs prefer their food sweetened! Specialist bacteria are put into dog food to create more of this effect to trigger the dogs into 'salivating' and consequently picking up their food and eating it. Dog food companies spend £1000's in research to develop the best of this effect in their products!The action of these enzymes has much in common with what we are aiming to achieve, in baits for carp!Modern 'Balanced profile' carp boilie baits mean 'optimally attractive', correct ratios of proteins, carbohydrates, fats, and supplemental vitamins, minerals, salt, and trace elements. These are not at all necessary to catch carp, but they certainly have many many benefits on catches and carp general health and growth rates!Remember, the carp has a very short, alkaline digestive tract! Ideally, this food needs to be in a form that is actively breaking down, for the carp to derive best benefits from it, or, in an easily digestible form, like that in bloodworms, fly larvae, shrimps or water snails, etc. One thing in favour of paste or dough baits and even pellets of different types, is they do not suffer the harmful effects of boiling.Sometimes, this point is reached in 'free baits', days after you've gone home, as bacteria act on them in the water. It is more than likely that this is the easiest form for the carp to digest! The absolute 'cutting edge' of carp bait production, may be in keeping enzymes stable in baits after boiling, and may even involve using natural bacterial enzymes in combination with balanced casein / soya bean 'peptone' content, for example. It may be possible that more enzymes are produced as more pre-digested materials are produced inside the 'active' boilie bait, (like pork or milk, or yeast, or liver extracts,) as bacteria levels are improved and become more abundant? One important area is the science of retaining enzyme stability in heat and changing pH conditions in the bait. PH 'buffers' are involved to protect enzyme potential and activity.In experiments involving 'thermos table alkaline enzyme and industrial bacteria', the best naturally produced, protein digesting enzyme (protease) levels, occurred using: (Peptone 1V), 'Soy tone', Corn steep liquor, Casein, Gelatin and beef extract. Enzyme production using the industrial 'peptone 1V' was dependant upon its concentration: too much, and there was an excessive nitrogen build-up, as in amino acids and ammonia, which then reduced the protease production. (The peptone was the nitrogen and carbon source). 'Soy tone' produced the second-best enzyme production, and the third was corn steep liquor.I would surmise from this, that not only can corn steep liquor be effective in translating whole food proteins into digestible forms by bacterial enzyme or other means, but also it may stimulate the production of free L-glutamic acid, within the bait ingredients producing a self digesting, self taste-enhancing bait! Top catches are mostly achieved by those people who 'push barriers a little,' who think and do things a little differently to the majority. So go on; why not be a little bit different; the fantastic rewards are just waiting for you!The author has many more fishing and bait 'edges' up his sleeve. Every single one can have a huge impact on catches. 

 

By Tim Richardson

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We appear to be singing from the same hymn sheet, nm. Certainly reading from the same one, at least.

I, too, struggle to put my meanings in to a structure that makes sense. It makes sense to read it back, then I post, and see my errors. Usually too late to edit it by then, and to re-type or to re-arrange the post is often not time permissible.

Anyway,...

The answer to your question you first asked - does 'ph' play a part. I answered that the best I could at the time. I had written so much more in the previous attempts to post, that when it came to posting my final effort - my fingers were screaming for a rest and so much I wanted to say was omitted. :mrgreen:

As for the effect which enzymes play, and your open question regarding 'choice of ingredients dictate' (not sic) :mrgreen: - then I would have to say yes, to my mind thought at least, although it would appear to contradict my thoughts in the first reply :mrgreen:. Allow clarification here - I am ugly, not stupid. :P For myself to suggest that my choice of ingredients are better than A.N.Other's would be stupid. However, as is the ingredients that I choose to use, and the way in which I prepare them for end result - allows, in my mind at least - to retain the enzymes that the bait recipe was designed. (PLEASE NOTE - I now outsource my bait rolling, so the way in which I prepared the same ingredients to get end result has changed), however, I still feel I, or the rolling company, can retain the 'goodness' that I would like to think I am feeding. I know that the boilies will be heated longer and that the enzymes will be denatured to a degree, but I can ride with that. The recipe can be found here somewhere, and when you analyse it, although quantity isn't given - you will see that a lot of thought was given to the inclusion of certain ingredients over alternatives for this very reason.

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  • 2 weeks later...

We appear to be singing from the same hymn sheet, nm. Certainly reading from the same one, at least.

I, too, struggle to put my meanings in to a structure that makes sense. It makes sense to read it back, then I post, and see my errors. Usually too late to edit it by then, and to re-type or to re-arrange the post is often not time permissible.

Anyway,...

The answer to your question you first asked - does 'ph' play a part. I answered that the best I could at the time. I had written so much more in the previous attempts to post, that when it came to posting my final effort - my fingers were screaming for a rest and so much I wanted to say was omitted. :mrgreen:

As for the effect which enzymes play, and your open question regarding 'choice of ingredients dictate' (not sic) :mrgreen: - then I would have to say yes, to my mind thought at least, although it would appear to contradict my thoughts in the first reply :mrgreen:. Allow clarification here - I am ugly, not stupid. :P For myself to suggest that my choice of ingredients are better than A.N.Other's would be stupid. However, as is the ingredients that I choose to use, and the way in which I prepare them for end result - allows, in my mind at least - to retain the enzymes that the bait recipe was designed. (PLEASE NOTE - I now outsource my bait rolling, so the way in which I prepared the same ingredients to get end result has changed), however, I still feel I, or the rolling company, can retain the 'goodness' that I would like to think I am feeding. I know that the boilies will be heated longer and that the enzymes will be denatured to a degree, but I can ride with that. The recipe can be found here somewhere, and when you analyse it, although quantity isn't given - you will see that a lot of thought was given to the inclusion of certain ingredients over alternatives for this very reason.

My investigations have lead me into a few different directions, monosodium glutamate, brewers yeast and a few other aspects. Im still looking and find the whole thing fascinating, I seem to be drawn by the brewers yeast path at the moment, all to do with the fermentation process, im sure you know. Just a little unclear if its beneficial before heating or after. I don't boil my baits a I might add, mine are steamed, the process seemingly retains a bit more of the ingredients and nutrients, although don't quote me on that, nothing I do is carried out under laboratory conditions. :)

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Can I ask why your poo pooing a general interest in bait science. I have a general interest into what works and why, I general thirst for knowledge, it may be your opinion that its all poppycock but to others there may well be some vital information they are looking for right here. Surely that is what forums are all about, sharing, educating, I take your basic point but there is a more technical side that people find genuinely interesting.

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,... OK, I for one will take your view on board, carpmachine.

Now we know your opinion, would it be too much to ask that you leave the thread alone, by way of not commenting again so as those of us which wish to learn have, a) sanctuary, and b) those of us that wish to learn (because we don't know it all) can have a place without ignorance and attention seeking to ask our relevant questions without receiving irrelevant replies.

 

Thank you for your anticipated acceptance of the request.

 

Available in Large Print and Braille.

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I don't wish to be the centre of any conflict, im happy enough in my pursuits to except other views, its fine :)

 

I did a little experiment earlier to activate the yeast with a little warm water and granulated sugar

 

20150611_093316_zpsnat2jq1i.jpg

Plus I have made a batch and steamed at 90 seconds rather than my usual 3 minutes, the outer is as normally cooked but the inner is still paste. In an attempt to not totally deactivate the yeast.

 

2015-06-11%2010.22.37_zpst0ywd3dy.jpg

 

Plus I have made some paste, maybe I am barking up the wrong tree but without experiments I have no idea :)

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In hindsight, the baits are a little soft and maybe the inclusion of some Albumin may harden up the outer skin some what, after all it does work nicely on cork ball pop ups that are steamed for the same amount of time.

I have left a pinch of paste and a couple of baits out on a plate to see what happens and the rest are in the freezer.

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I would be reluctant to use the yeast on the basis that I don't know enough about the reactions that would/could occur with the ingredients I would possibly use during 'fermentation'. ie,.Blood Powder (lysine up or down?). (I'm a scaredy cat, scaredy cat, sittin on the door mat :wink:)

I would also look at alternatives - oh, I would :roll::wink::P:mrgreen: (Deja vu re: enzymes) - Garlic powder! :wink: 

 

That said - the shop bought bait (boilie) which does contain the yeast additive is Goofies Danglies, so it obviously works.

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