garysj01 Posted December 1, 2012 Report Share Posted December 1, 2012 Why do you think attractors and extracts work Im not looking for a simple because they do and that's it, although i will guess someone will, for a laugh. Take for instance Salt, even though i disagree with its use, i think carp like it because its not part of their natural diet on the whole, and i think when they do come across salt they take it as a much needed nutrient. I suppose the same could be said for Kelp, Fishmeal and any fishmeal based baits, but what about, Corn Steep Liquor, Green Lipped Mussel, and what about the fruit flavours, Why do carp like them? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
blanksalot Posted December 1, 2012 Report Share Posted December 1, 2012 Because..they are programmed to eat...simples Some light reading here gary http://wrytestuff.com/swa143309.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest keenook Posted December 1, 2012 Report Share Posted December 1, 2012 I have not used a synthetic flavour for over 25 Years, no need for flavours if your base is good. I do use enzimes in my bait, becase they break the bait down, giving of the Arhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh Bisto signals to the Carp! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmcee Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 Why do you think attractors and extracts work Im not looking for a simple because they do and that's it, although i will guess someone will, for a laugh. Take for instance Salt, even though i disagree with its use, i think carp like it because its not part of their natural diet on the whole, and i think when they do come across salt they take it as a much needed nutrient. I suppose the same could be said for Kelp, Fishmeal and any fishmeal based baits, but what about, Corn Steep Liquor, Green Lipped Mussel, and what about the fruit flavours, Why do carp like them? lets face it 99% of what we throw in the lake is not part of the carps natural diet. i mean how many anglers actually use pure real bloodworm,pond snails,daphnia,swan mussels and zebra mussels etc not many i bet. ok there are some that use bloodworm,snail hookbaits,blitzed up snails,mussels and daphnia meal within a bait etc but thats as far as it goes. as for why do carp like them, who says they do i cant stand kidney but put it in a steak and kidney pie with gravy and i will eat it all, maybe carp dont like flavours or certain parts of our baits but they like the rest of it and when its all together they eat it. take particles for instance, friends of mine many years ago used to only use a parti-blend type of mix, they caught their share of carp but they noticed that the carp were only passing 3 of the seeds from the mix without a sign of any of the others. they then switched their particle mix to the 3 seeds and proceeded to empty the lake and every lake they go on since. now why do the carp only like those 3 seeds my answer is i ain't got a clue, but if we knew we would all empty the lakes we fish would we not rocketron52 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salokcinnodrog Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 Emmcee, You've come up with a point on particles that takes me back to a few years ago on Taverham and Barham A Pit. On Taverham I was using a mix of hemp, tares, sweetcron and chick peas. The carp were picking out the hemp from the mix, and leaving the tares and chicks. Even when using tares as a hookbait with just hemp as the background feed the tares were avoided Yet if there was no hemp in the background feed the carp would eat the lot On A pit, the background feed was hemp, tares and mung beans with, and again the carp were cherry picking the hemp from the mix. One of my favourite attractors and as an attractor and nutrition wise it is excellent, is Liver Powder. Fishmeal in itself is an excellent attractor as well as being highly nutritional; it is probably for that reason that fishmeal baits have been so successful. Some additives are rich in amino acids, and provide that 'eat me' signal Like Kev says, if your bait is right, then there is no need for synthetic flavours. I specify synthetic as there are some flavours with natural products that are attractors in their own right. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest keenook Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 Emmcee,You've come up with a point on particles that takes me back to a few years ago on Taverham and Barham A Pit. On Taverham I was using a mix of hemp, tares, sweetcron and chick peas. The carp were picking out the hemp from the mix, and leaving the tares and chicks. Even when using tares as a hookbait with just hemp as the background feed the tares were avoided Yet if there was no hemp in the background feed the carp would eat the lot On A pit, the background feed was hemp, tares and mung beans with, and again the carp were cherry picking the hemp from the mix. One of my favourite attractors and as an attractor and nutrition wise it is excellent, is Liver Powder. Fishmeal in itself is an excellent attractor as well as being highly nutritional; it is probably for that reason that fishmeal baits have been so successful. Some additives are rich in amino acids, and provide that 'eat me' signal Like Kev says, if your bait is right, then there is no need for synthetic flavours. I specify synthetic as there are some flavours with natural products that are attractors in their own right. Bang on Nick! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobleyn Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 Hold on a minute there chaps...synthetic flavours on a base mix have caught probably 10 fish for every one without. I'm not saying that the base mix shouldn't be over looked...on the contrary...it is the most important long term part of the 'boilie jigsaw'. But to use an analogy...when I've had a pint or two I'll eat ready salted crisps and enjoy them (if you'll accept ready salted as 'unflavoured' for the sake of the analogy).... But other days I'll fancy salt and vinegar, cheese and onion etc etc. They're all the same...but with a synthetic flavour over the top. rocketron52 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travisbickle Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 Hold on a minute there chaps...synthetic flavours on a base mix have caught probably 10 fish for every one without. I'm not saying that the base mix shouldn't be over looked...on the contrary...it is the most important long term part of the 'boilie jigsaw'. But to use an analogy...when I've had a pint or two I'll eat ready salted crisps and enjoy them (if you'll accept ready salted as 'unflavoured' for the sake of the analogy).... But other days I'll fancy salt and vinegar, cheese and onion etc etc. They're all the same...but with a synthetic flavour over the top. finally some sense!!....I seem to remember in the 80s...richworths being the first to mass produce baits...one of which was "neutral"....with a two tone shading.....never had a fish on them.... yet once glugged with glycerin and SBS squiddly diddly I raped one water on the very same base.....a milk protein base....now yes I agree that we are light years ahead....but are we really??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
christian97 Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 It is very true you can make a very successful bait with no synthetic flavour. It is equally true that you can trick (atrract) a carp to a pick up a very ordinary semo/soya comination by using an attractive synthetic flavour......So why not get the best of both worlds....you may have to be careful with the flavour level to ensure they continue to eat the bait but eat it they will. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salokcinnodrog Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 Hold on a minute there chaps...synthetic flavours on a base mix have caught probably 10 fish for every one without. I'm not saying that the base mix shouldn't be over looked...on the contrary...it is the most important long term part of the 'boilie jigsaw'. But to use an analogy...when I've had a pint or two I'll eat ready salted crisps and enjoy them (if you'll accept ready salted as 'unflavoured' for the sake of the analogy).... But other days I'll fancy salt and vinegar, cheese and onion etc etc. They're all the same...but with a synthetic flavour over the top. Not arguing there Neil, but what I am getting at is that the flavour is not necessarily the most important part of the equation, but can be used to add to the effectiveness of the bait. I used Trigga on Earith, and in its plain form to other anglers, straight out the freezer or off the shelf, it worked, but by adding Green Lipped Mussel Extract and a Nature Identical flavour to the bait in Liver Elite and Sweet Cajouser it worked better. I know that Premier were the first with the Fishmeals, and some of their baits tore apart Darenth Valley and many other waters, but would those same baits have worked without the Cranberry flavour that seemed to be the favourite? Or was the main attractor the high levels of Salmon Oil? I did make sure I split out the specifics of synthetic flavours as well Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travisbickle Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 think that leads into a whole other argument of chemoreception Nick...palatal receptors etc.....You know I do and have for many years used milk proteins...summer and winter....so Im a firm believer in the HNV principal....but...I think that added boost of attraction is without doubt the cause of captures that will and do outweigh a blank base bait. rocketron52 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
salokcinnodrog Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 I've got a funny feeling that Milk Proteins may need an additional flavour in the base. I don't know why, I just have 'that feeling'. Maybe it is the solubility of the milk proteins and their 'lack of taste', whatever I don't know. Incidentally years ago I did a rough breakdown on flavours and their base solvents, which may be attractors in their own right, and it is on this thread: https://forum.carp.com/carp-forum/viewtopic.php?t=24365&highlight=solvent Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
cobleyn Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 I think the issue in today's market is that most baits have similar base mixes in...so as anglers we want them to get the heads down on our baits first. So the trick comes down to either high attractors...or making our freebies stand out. Naturals like glm, betaine, salmon oil etc etc send out those powerful 'eat me' signals...but the synthetics can add that 'eat me immedeatley' topping on top. I think the best baits have a complex blend of base mix, powdered ingredients, liquid natural attractors, essential oils and synthetic flavours. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travisbickle Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 As I said...that is palatal reception.....milks have a strong palatal pull...simply look at the results the old rm30 bait had...without any boosts...my current bait is fifteen years running now....milk base..and yet I still have more confidence with that added punch....its a confidence thing....had a spell on fishmeals...dont get on with them....too heavily used and abused...so maybe its down to my preference for walking out of step to everyone else....fishing in the deep dark silt instead of clear spots etc etc... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigewoodcock Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 As I said...that is palatal reception.....milks have a strong palatal pull...simply look at the results the old rm30 bait had...without any boosts...my current bait is fifteen years running now....milk base..and yet I still have more confidence with that added punch....its a confidence thing....had a spell on fishmeals...dont get on with them....too heavily used and abused...so maybe its down to my preference for walking out of step to everyone else....fishing in the deep dark silt instead of clear spots etc etc... This is why I have come away from fishmeals. Wasn't getting any interest on them in the silt(and lots of it). I put a lot in and applied it in a way which should have done the job. Had a few discussions with coops and came up with something that I think can work. Just need to tinker a bit to get it spot on. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travisbickle Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 Glad it wasnt only my findings mate....have to say I was hoping for more input from people on this one...makings of a damn good thread. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
garysj01 Posted December 2, 2012 Author Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 Del, so do you think in winter when a carp metabolism slows its looking for proteins to replace energy lost, its just to my mind, you want the highest possible protein for least amount of effort, maybe that's why the milk protein based baits do work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nigewoodcock Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 Glad it wasnt only my findings mate....have to say I was hoping for more input from people on this one...makings of a damn good thread. It's a part of angling that I will never understand. Bait formulation is so complex that I'm happy for someone to take that headache away from me. There are two people who I trust when it comes to bait. Mike Willmott and coops. With these two doing all the hard work, I can just play about with the additional flavours/enhancers and concentrate on applying it. I do like to make my own popups and hookbaits. With coops- I can tell him what I am trying to overcome. Fishing in silt for example. He can then come up with a possible solution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travisbickle Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 in short yes...I think its because its a far more easily accessed protein...although a lesser level....but far easier processed Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest keenook Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 Interesting Indeed, so many diferent thoughts! Good one, Milks V fishmeals! Now I have used pure milks with great results, however, If there was only one type of bait to choose, it would be a fishmeal without a second thought! Now I say a "fishmeal" but infact my bait is around 40/60. Make of that what you will! But I know that this bait will be taken on first time of trying! Now some poeple state that you have to get the bait working, ToSH! A good bait will be instant! I have done this, and it worked. the guys that promote this, own a bait CO!!! I am not pulling words to big up! But it is fact! And that "Fact" has done me well over a few years! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travisbickle Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 Kev...I CAN make exactly the same claims on milk bases....enervite????.....remember that one???...before fishmeals actually even hit??.......not even going to mention the fact of dropping any dirty old bait on a feeding carp...which we both know on a given day ...in a heavy feed....WILL take it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest keenook Posted December 2, 2012 Report Share Posted December 2, 2012 Kev...I CAN make exactly the same claims on milk bases....enervite????.....remember that one???...before fishmeals actually even hit??.......not even going to mention the fact of dropping any dirty old bait on a feeding carp...which we both know on a given day ...in a heavy feed....WILL take it Mmmmmmmmmm Nutrabaits I believe? I had Cottom and Paisley trying to sell their goddies to me, the only outstanding product was sweet Cajoulser! Fantastic, and I even did tank tests back then! Yes Obssessed indeed, that cost me a lot, but a fantastic attractor none the less! In a heavy feed Situ yes, but on hard waters, you have to formulate that one bite effect, that is the test of a good bait! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
travisbickle Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 for one bite success....then I would have to go with cream cajouser...not sweet.....in general....nutrabaits do the biz....I dont believe anyone can argue that point.....yes yes Im a stalwart for their gear.....but....its result led Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Guest keenook Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 for one bite success....then I would have to go with cream cajouser...not sweet.....in general....nutrabaits do the biz....I dont believe anyone can argue that point.....yes yes Im a stalwart for their gear.....but....its result ledDel........................X Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
emmcee Posted December 3, 2012 Report Share Posted December 3, 2012 I've got a funny feeling that Milk Proteins may need an additional flavour in the base. I don't know why, I just have 'that feeling'. Maybe it is the solubility of the milk proteins and their 'lack of taste', whatever I don't know. Incidentally years ago I did a rough breakdown on flavours and their base solvents, which may be attractors in their own right, and it is on this thread: https://forum.carp.com/carp-forum/viewtopic.php?t=24365&highlight=solvent ive done very well when using milk proteins and i do add a synthetic flavour to them plus a few other bits though i recall reading about a bait that phil thompson used to use that he called the unscented white pea. this was a pure milk protein and as the bait states it had no flavour but he had excellent results on that bait so from that maybe a flavour is not necessary. to add to what nige has said ive done excellent on a recipe that is in mike wilmotts book though i know for a fact that it was not he who designed it and that is belechan, yeast(marmite) and oyster sauce combined in a fishmeal with no flavour is a devastating bait, whether or not a flavour would improve that bait i dont know Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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